Why can't India be a World-Class Player in Manufacturing Industry as it is in IT & BPO Sectors?
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Soumya said:
(Tue, May 15, 2012 09:10:02 AM)
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Before speaking on the topic, I want to tell you that primary sector (agriculture, fishing etc) , secondary sector (manufacturing) and tertiary sector (services) are the three phases of development of an economy. Generally developing economies are dominated by manufacturing sector, while tertiary sector is the predominant contribution to the development of developed economy. But In case of India, there is a mismatch, India being a developing country is characterized by tertiary sector growth. So it indicates India has skipped the second phase of growth.
From the beginning of nineteenth century up to independence, agriculture was the main livelihood of people and thereafter followed approximately three decades of five-year plan. In this period, growth was minimal. But suddenly after 1990s, and in the beginning of 2000s, IT/ITes/BPO sector developed, because.
- Higher education was in its peak, thus engineering students graduated (increase in manpower).
- Willing to work in less pay.
- Private sectors were true gainers, used Indian skill to transfer knowledge and job to their country, thus getting a support from their respective country.
- For a moment, government thought that it is true development without realizing that the growth comes from outside, and any unexpected circumstance in their country could affect its growth rate.
- Although government launched certain manufacturing policies for development of R&D sector, heavy industries like petroleum and mineral industries, agriculture-allied0industries, still the growth was very minimal due to corruption and lack of interest among the men in power.
But one fundamental theory of manufacturing sector is that, wages and machines that are used to manufacture goods will depreciate, but human assets have their value. Thus it is best time for India to invest in manufacturing now as it has a lot of advantages.
- Large number of skilled and semi-skilled workers available.
- Best brains of India that developed in India are returning to India.
- India is one of world's largest economy, so it does not have to wait for the world to support its investment.
- Many companies have the capacity to invest heavily.
Thus finally, I will conclude that India could not be a world class player in manufacturing sector, but by dedicated and coherent partnership by Govt, public sector and private sector can help India being one of the biggest player in manufacturing. |
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B.Steinsen said:
(Sat, May 12, 2012 12:54:10 PM)
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In India we have good speaking skills which leads to impress customers and convince them to take interest in the given field. Another reason is, In India we can get employees for BPO's/it's very easily and in very less pay-scale and its only because of unemployment in other different departments its so finally people have to start their earnings from such kind platform.
Manufacturing needs a big amount of investment initially and lots of paper also need to approved by our government. To get all things done we have to give pay bribe on each level this will definitely increase the corruption so its good in bpo/it at least they are private and thus far away from corruption.
Thank you. |
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Ansari said:
(Sun, Apr 29, 2012 05:35:08 PM)
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My view over the topic "yes ofcourse India is not taking as much as effort in industry when compared to IT and BPO sectors.
The reason behind this "our education system".
Generally, our education system helps the person to develop and modify the existing things and use predefined one that why we shine in the field of IT and BPO's.
Then our syllabus framed only basis on theoritical knowledge not for pratical.
In future, we will implement the smart claass courses and modern technology. We will achieve the position quickly. |
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Vivek said:
(Thu, Apr 26, 2012 07:20:23 PM)
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India can be the world class player in manufacturing industry but since it's a developing country where new technology, world class creativity and educated and well established people required which India is lacking, and to collect these things India is inviting foreign countries who are coming with their inferior works like BPO s and all, or India is investing in less risky business that is BPO, IT etc.
So India is in top in BPO or IT s because it has a developing economy, and I am sure having getting established and proper awareness India will become world-class player in manufacturing industry also. |
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Dennis said:
(Sun, Mar 11, 2012 06:35:36 PM)
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India had a lopsided growth compared to other countries. Normally a growth in agriculture is followed by a growth in manufacturing industry which is succeeded by the service industry. But in India we shifted from the agriculture development to the services sector which catapulted our growth to one of the mainstays of the world economy.
Because of the huge growth of services, the manufacturing industry was shadowed and contributes hardly 22pc to the GDP which is decreasing further. India currently spends only 1pc to RnD. Also inspite of having a strong patent system, the govt has not encouraged soft loans for inventors to develop and market their product. Another reason as already stated is the huge flux of engineers moving to the more glamorous I. T. Industry thus leading to a mis allocation of skills and lack of skilled people in the core engineering sectors, which offer lesser pay and where jobs require more effort and energy.
Having poor infrastructure has discouraged foreign manufacturers from investing in India. It has been calculated that we need $1 trillion to completely develop our entire infrastructure. Hence there's a lot of work to be done.
ALso some of the brightest minds from iits and nits prefer the huge pay packages in foreign countries which has affected our r&d sector.
All these factors have prevented India from being a strong player in the manufacturing industry. |
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Rate this: +15 -2
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Dennis said:
(Sun, Mar 11, 2012 05:02:23 PM)
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India had a lopsided growth compared to other countries. Normally a growth in agriculture is followed by a growth in manufacturing industry which is succeeded by the service industry. But in India we shifted from the agriculture development to the services sector which catapulted our growth to one of the mainstays of the world economy.
Because of the huge growth of services, the manufacturing industry was shadowed and contributes hardly 22pc to the GDP which is decreasing further. India currently spends only 1pc to RnD. Also inspite of having a strong patent system, the govt has not encouraged soft loans for inventors to develop and market their product. Another reason as already stated is the huge flux of engineers moving to the more glamorous I. T. Industry thus leading to a mis allocation of skills and lack of skilled people in the core engineering sectors, which offer lesser pay and where jobs require more effort and energy.
Having poor infrastructure has discouraged foreign manufacturers from investing in India. It has been calculated that we need $1 trillion to completely develop our entire infrastructure. Hence there's a lot of work to be done.
ALso some of the brightest minds from iits and nits prefer the huge pay packages in foreign countries which has affected our r&d sector.
All these factors have prevented India from being a strong player in the manufacturing industry. |
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Akshay said:
(Mon, Mar 5, 2012 11:18:07 AM)
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| Civil engineers, Electronics engineers, Mechanical engineers, Telecomm engineers, and all other kinds of 'engineers' are turning towards IT to make the easy, quick buck. Why cant we stick to our own specializations, our vocations, our fortés and build our careers and this country? Sure, IT job offers come in great numbers, but it is YOU who choose to take them because "its the 'easy' way out"! I work in an IT company and as true as it may be, that infrastructure and basic setup require comparatively less amount of money, its utter rubbish that talent or skill is not a requirement! There's something called people skill that is required in addition to the technical know-how of one's job profile! Let's not deviate from the topic and condemn IT/BPO, instead of discussing how we may better the current scenario. We needn't forget how IT/BPO has blessed this country's huge unemployed populace with power to sustain their families, but all the same, we do need to work towards entrepreneur-friendly policies, less bureaucratic involvement in the setup process of manufacturing units, easier capital availability, etc. |
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Akashhp said:
(Sun, Feb 26, 2012 02:30:41 AM)
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| India have a service economy. People believe in having a good job and finally live a satisfied life and die. But they are not ready to accept the challenges and look into manufacturing arena. We really lack people having the entrepreneurial qualities and those who have it rarely make a good use of it. To become a global manufacturer people should dare to take calculated risks and should set up a business ventures rather than looking for a job. We should believe in Inventing a job rather than discovering any. Extensive research and making good use of the man-power can give us a very good result. We should sharpen the skills of the students in the professional courses and should have a practical approach and give up conventional method of working. |
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Harish said:
(Thu, Feb 23, 2012 02:10:37 AM)
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| The problem is placing a company in a known location is not easy, Because of the Government employees's mind to get some amount to do their alloted work. If the company get started also there is a probability of closing the company is very high. We cannot predict what will happen. However no one is interested in taking risk in this. Thus it can be happen only if the government take the necessary steps to the cover the Industrialist and make interest to the students that there will be a good future in INDIA itself. Our Indian Students are not much more interest in making money only in upgrading their skills in a correct place. |
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Ritesh Yadav said:
(Sat, Feb 18, 2012 02:51:37 AM)
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Hello friends, all your views are really what I want to convey as well.
It and bpo sectors are solely dependent on work exchange rather than producing or manufacturing something. Manufacturing has higher standards and sops than compared to bpo or IT job. Additionaly, in manufacturing sector there are strict norms and availability of resources, infrastructure, skilled manpower and efficient workers are hard to manage whereas in bpo sector and IT field resources are just a room and few computer systems and therotical knowledge is same as the practical knowledge so their skills are not of much importance, whereas in manufacturing sector you needs several requirements and also quality is an important criteion that has to be watched for. That is why manufacturing sector in India is not s good as the bpo sector. Thank you. |
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Rate this: +3 -4
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Bhaskar said:
(Sat, Feb 18, 2012 12:14:38 AM)
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| In india technoligies are not updated fastly compare to other nations.In manufacturing sector the more important is adapt to the new technologies for the quality and time management. |
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Abhishek said:
(Sat, Feb 11, 2012 12:38:27 PM)
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| The IT and BPO sector, mostly belongs to private sectors and has their own equipments in India whereas other manufacturing company solely depends on government for thier infrastructure. Other reason is the quality of product produced. In India they focus more in business than in quality so their growth is not enough to compete the world market. |
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Rate this: +4 -1
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Sana said:
(Tue, Feb 7, 2012 07:58:13 PM)
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| Though Many reasons can be presented for the current scenario like bank rates hike, high duties, poor or no policy reforms etc. , by the industrialists, the main reason why couldn we shine in secondary sector than tertiary, is poor infrastructure, a part of investment. As known by all investment for an IT or BPO company is not so big as for a manufacturing plant. That is why we have seen service takes a huge part in the GDP pie, with good performing financial institutions. The need for the hour is more investment in R&D. Government if couldn't afford to invest more can seek the foriegn aid through FDI. For a country like India where we have the large human resource with enthusiastic youth seeking an arena to learn more, it's no harm to allow FDI to improve infrastructure, just like how China improved it's trade. If there are more jobs in Industrial sector with an ambience to learn and increase the competency level of the employees, no Indian will prefer the BPO's that provide no option to excel. |
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Sanket said:
(Mon, Jan 16, 2012 07:19:28 PM)
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Our study system is not suitable for creating new innovations .We cant go forward with our ideas because of tendency of Indian people not to do new things.
when on e becomes expert in manufacturing industry in India he or she will prefer to work abroad for higher packages,they learn from India and helps to develop others country rather than India.
Infrastructure also plays imp role in these to sectors. |
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Nikhil said:
(Sun, Jan 1, 2012 11:45:25 PM)
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As manufacturing industry needs more investment, more space, more machineries, as compared to IT industries so called BPO's and other;it becomes difficult for nation like India which is developing country. Also other Goverment, political problems matters.
Also weather, transportation, availability of raw materials, market. All these conditions also matters for any manufacturing plant. But IT industries can be seen anywhere irrespective of this things.
One big thing is the technical knowledge with creative mind is very important for anyone working in manufacturing industry as compared to one who is working in IT sector. |
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Rohit said:
(Sat, Dec 31, 2011 11:11:41 AM)
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I also agree with all of you, as foreign countries offer big salary for their benefit. Because they are exactly aware of Indian people tendency about money. Because day by day many consciousness increases like political issues, inflation corruption etc are reason which are diverting people mind.
Due to Corruption & inflation India is still developing country and not developed one like US. That all I can say. |
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Rate this: +3 -2
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Dharmendr Patel said:
(Thu, Nov 3, 2011 11:42:54 PM)
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| We can not sucess in development of manufecturing industry as each work on natioan lavel are started by politician and they started to poltics on this subject. We need more money for this purpose. While for it\bpo hardly required some computer and few worker. Due to large money help of government is essantial but due to poltics not possible. So there should be an organization of well educated person develop by government who can help for development in manufecturing areas. |
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Ms Khan said:
(Thu, Oct 20, 2011 11:11:34 AM)
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| According to my view we are not as good in manufacturing as compared to BPO's/IT sectors because every one in today's fast world want to make money in quick succession. In IT's/BPO's you can operate from a room on a server and make quick money and get your company benefited. But in manufacturing field we have to struggle. Look for resources, raw material, permission from govt agencies which is a long process because corrupt politician and bureacrats delay the whole things, huge amount of money and patience. Since we are lacking in spirit and resources, opting for manfacturing carrier is not fruitful. Just take an example of TATA Nano factory at Singur West Bengal. Once the whole thing is set up and the company was about to delivered the cars in the market, the politics started its dirty game and forced TATA to shut the manfacturing plant. Here, the focus is not development but the focus is on vote bank because we technology will reach in villages the people will be more educated and advanced. They can think what is wrong and right. So our politicians think that the villagers should not experience a steep progress so that their mind is changed. Due to problem like acquisition of land, mining, lack of raw materials, lack of infrastructure, roads connectivity manfacturing plant in India is still a dream come ture. |
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Rate this: +111 -4
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Jeeva said:
(Tue, Oct 4, 2011 05:59:08 PM)
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Our indians has both man power and mind power but we are using only man power because we are not having required platform to develop our mind power.
India having 30 crors youngsters but US has 31crores 20 lacks people only. There are 28, 43, 391 Indians in US. Why they were moved to there? why couldn't develop a new IT Industry?
In India there is no resources like R&D (Research and development). So our graduates couldn't proved their innovations and develop industry in India.
See, japan is a small country only 127 million people over there but their IT and other industry growth is rapidly increasing because the main reason is they have R&D for every sector.
My perspective is, Comparing with other nation we have more man power and mind power, we can do anything. But some people are not willing to take risk while earning more money by IT but Some people has to take risk and try to be a entrepreneur, they are not having that much of money. So without the cooperation of the government it is not quite possible to start this industry. |
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Jeeva said:
(Tue, Oct 4, 2011 05:37:51 PM)
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Our indians has both man power and mind power but we are using only man power because we are not having required platform to develop our mind power.
India having 30 crors youngsters but US has 31crores 20 lacks people only. There are 28, 43, 391 Indians in US. Why they were moved to there? why couldn't develop a new IT Industry?
In India there is no resources like R&D (Research and development). So our graduates couldn't proved their innovations and develop industry in India.
See, japan is a small country only 127 million people over there but their IT and other industry growth is rapidly increasing because the main reason is they have R&D for every sector.
My perspective is, Comparing with other nation we have more man power and mind power, we can do anything. But some people are not willing to take risk while earning more money by IT but Some people has to take risk and try to be a entrepreneur, they are not having that much of money. So without the cooperation of the government it is not quite possible to start this industry. |
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Rupesh Prajapat said:
(Wed, Sep 7, 2011 03:25:43 AM)
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Indian people have both Man Power and Mind Power. But mostly Indian people use only Man power because they have no suitable platform, India have less resources.
One another thing in Indian people that they have talent but they can't express their talent so they didn't get job as they want or according their talent due to lack of communication skills, so they change their job or goal.
Second thing is investment in manufacturing industry and a IT/BPO company, after completing gradution a student can open their own company (IT/BPO) with the Bank loan, and easily start their profession with 8-10 system's and 10-15 employer's.
But for manufacturing industry their is required a lot of money or investment, so any one can neither think nor start indusry.
A Manufacturing industry can start with the help of government if we talking about nano technology, otherwise this is not possible my means not to say impossible without government this will start if Bussiness man want for example Ambani groups, Tata etc. |
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Ujjwal Sharma said:
(Mon, Aug 15, 2011 09:40:47 AM)
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This is just because of the Lack of infrastructure. Mostly we see in India only IT sector has always been at a boom but as far as manufacturing is concerned.its very limited.
Basically India lack in the field of development.despite so much boom in the IT industry.still India is unable to develop any world leading software like windows, etc. As far as electronics is concerned, we have potential engineers that can work in core fields of development but due to the lack of infrastructure, its still not possible to provide them a suitable platform to showcase their skills.
The Indian govt should take some steps to enhance development of certain units that will be engaged in the core development processes.It will be beneficial in two ways.
1. Brain drain will reduce to a great extent.
2. The load that IT sector is facing today will also be greatly reduced.
Moreover it will add to India's development into a Developed Nation. |
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Murali said:
(Fri, Aug 5, 2011 05:38:56 AM)
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Even parents are not supporting for new innovation they need to settle in life as soon as possible this can be provided only by IT field. It takes some time in manufacturing field. Also people in german can work becz they have more economical power.
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Harish Kr Singh said:
(Sun, Jul 3, 2011 01:06:27 AM)
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It is due to the some reasons as-.
If we want to start an IT/BPO company we hardly needs a small room, 8-10 computers & 10-15 employers which can work for long on a lower amount of pay-scale because we have a huge manpower.
But to start a manufacturing company we need a very large area, very expensive machines & very well trained manpower which needs a very big money investments.
So without the cooperation of the government it is not quite possible to start this industry.
As we can take the examples of IC fabrication labs, and nano-technology. Nano-tech was initiated in India but its developing in USA just because of the money. |
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Medha said:
(Tue, Jun 14, 2011 06:08:42 PM)
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India has resources required for Manufacturing like Market(Domestic) + Raw Material. What it lacks is Infrastructure ( which is very apparant)
I think our basic Problem is TRAINED Manpower, and Leaders. Here I am NOT talking of Political Leaders, but Entrepreneurs, who think LONG TERM and can MOTIVATE team, have CLARITY of thoughts
We boast of having Graduate Engineers / Accountants / and various other fields. But does our Education System TEACH them / Prepeare them / Train them for work environment?
India has Medium & Small sectors which contribute to more than 40% of Manufacturing. The Manpower is not even aware of IMPORTANCE of being on Time and 100% attendance
TRAINING of Skills should also include TRAINING or GROOMING for the PRODUCTION activities! |
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Senthamizh said:
(Sun, May 22, 2011 09:57:09 AM)
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| We are wasting our indians potential for others and becameing a slaves to them we do what ever they say and working hard for them and they are giving 1 % of their profit to us as a salary, just think they paying high means how much they will be earning because of us, if we work for us means we ll be the best in the world for ever. |
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Kiran Soni said:
(Wed, May 18, 2011 10:49:43 AM)
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I agree with all but I think basic problem of our country is they believed white hair and does't chance for new generation for lack of experience but I think every one who invasion something has to be got chance for grooving but in India new thing always push by political and other kind of power. Worlds most powerful organisation NASA has a 35% scientist of Indian. So we see that we have a quality and talent but doe't used that because lack for support them.
Thank you. |
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Sneha said:
(Wed, May 11, 2011 12:35:22 PM)
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| Lack of initiative & investment in the manufacturing sector and also thinking from the point of view of common man, I think every one today is interested in doing a desk-job that is more luxurious rather than doing hard work in a manufacturing industry. |
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Pratiksha said:
(Tue, May 10, 2011 03:34:48 AM)
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I also agree with all of you, as foreign countries offer big salary for their benefit. Because they are exactly aware of Indian people tendency about money. Because day by day many consciousness increases like political issues, inflation corruption etc are reason which are diverting people mind.
Due to Corruption & inflation India is still developing country and not developed one like US. That all I can say. |
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Chrissypinto said:
(Mon, May 9, 2011 01:06:15 PM)
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Its basically competitive advantage, each country has a resource of which it can produce much better than other countries.
In India's case, the presence of English speaking and Educated youth is our advantage.
Thus, we should use the advantage to its full potential and not wonder why we can't expand to other sectors. |
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Vanathi said:
(Sat, May 7, 2011 06:23:08 AM)
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Indian are don't like to work in India due to corruption which plays more in India.
1) work culture.
2) not selecting the right person for the right job.
3) affride to take risk.
4) lack in production.
5) busines ethics. |
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Kantharaju said:
(Mon, May 2, 2011 11:04:47 AM)
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I agree we have issues, but it is not up to the extent what we think. If you take people group into confidence, I think no other contributors can beat people intelligence.
We are the only people who are willing to accept changes in fastest manner. If you look at 10 years back and today we have changed a lot. If you buy in group of people we can win. Nothing is impossible in our culture and combination it is a matter of making people to understand the goal and the advantages. |
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Radhika said:
(Sun, May 1, 2011 09:09:24 AM)
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| Indians don't like to work in India because of political and low salary. So, the foreign countries utilizing the Indian's innovative thinkings to develop their countries. Its the main reason that we lack in production. |
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Rupa said:
(Wed, Mar 23, 2011 01:40:35 AM)
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| I think that more over in India there is no special development on material sciences department. So no one showing interest to produce products because of limited resources and lack of special idea on that. Some of our citizens going to abroad because of money and finding better oppertunities. |
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Raja said:
(Wed, Mar 16, 2011 12:26:12 PM)
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| Today's world is spreading of BPO and IT sectors, and every person are willing to join in that sector |
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Karthik said:
(Wed, Mar 16, 2011 12:21:27 PM)
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| Today's Indian where interested more in IT and BPO Sectors because most of Indians are like to study based courses. |
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Lydia,Krithika,Mangai said:
(Wed, Mar 16, 2011 04:39:33 AM)
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Today's world is IT world and many new invention and innovation. the technology is advancing in a very broad way. our india is having 1.5 IT professional and in microsoft the percent of indian worker is 37%. So how we are lacking in IT.
We can make our own microsoft , we have the people, technology. US is ahead of us because they are using us, our people working there, the number of engineers we r having in india is the half of the population of US.
We can deal with every situation. we just need a well planned goverment ideas and innovation. our govt. is not taking initiatives for uplifting our IT industry that is the 3rd hghst in contributing to the GDP of economy. IT can beat the service and agriculture sector by the people and enginners India have. |
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Maya said:
(Tue, Mar 15, 2011 06:03:12 AM)
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| One main reason is that many of our guys are money motive. Since western countries provide these opportunities people are drifting towards those nation and are least interested in developing our nation. And working for its betterment. |
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Shashank said:
(Tue, Mar 15, 2011 01:58:39 AM)
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I don't want to point these sector but I think these sectors which we are telling i.e.BPO and IT basically are not in search of talent (in India) , they basically need manpower and they train them to work as they want. These sectors are growing so much because it doesnt require much investment in production and manufacture. Only paying a small amount to the employee gets them money. We have got more manpower and people easily get attracted toward these BPO's because they don't require much education and youngsters can easily earn their living. Considering IT sector, now a days we see that a person doing mechanical engineering gets an IT job. They train them one month and then they are ready to run in the race course. This is what happening now a days.
Students immediately after graduation gets a job in these sector easily and hence they get attracted more towards them. And hence it is but natural that these sectors will definetly grow.
Government should play a part in this. We have got organisations like AICTE and UGC in education which gives accredation to almost all the colleges approaching their door step.
Before giving accredation they must consider various points like.
1. Adequate and good faculties are present for each course which the institute is giving.
2. Students getting equal opportunities to get the job in their specialised field.
And many more.
These things can open the opportunity for the young generation like us to take the field in which we are interested.
If we are saying that we have not got talent this is totally wrong. The thing is we are not using our talent properly. Or we can say we are misusing it.
It is not that we are not more attracted towards the manufacturing industries but the fact is youngsters are not given much opportunity in these fields. So they try to move abroad and get settle there. This thinking must be changed and if Government is not providing the opportunity we must take a step forward make our own way. Their are lot of manufacturing indusries in our country. We must make our standard so high that we get into that. |
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Avinandan said:
(Mon, Feb 28, 2011 02:00:13 PM)
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| Yes I agree with all of you.But one thing we never ignore,the main resource of BPO & IT sector are man power, where as resources varied in the manufacturing sector.India is a Developing nation as abhishek says before,so Engineering study field grows in a parabolic path which helps the availablibity of Trained man power for BPO & IT field where as Trained manpower for manufacturing field is less available. |
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Abhishek said:
(Mon, Feb 21, 2011 09:53:51 AM)
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India is a Developing nation. So We are not able to have a fund to have a manufacturing of something.
Other nation can promote ourselves, but they will first think of Manufacturing in their nation.
Also corruption plays a important role in economy of India which also leads to no manufacturing investments in INDIA. |
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Dnyandeo said:
(Thu, Sep 9, 2010 06:04:57 AM)
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| I want to mention one thing here is that, we have enough talent but we don't have enough resources. So most of the industrialist investing there money where the resources are enough. For IT and BPO industries no need or we can say very less tax on transformation. So ultimately, investor will look for that first. Transportation of raw material itself takes too much time and money. |
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Rate this: +4 -3
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Saikrishna said:
(Sun, Sep 5, 2010 06:12:16 AM)
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| Because, each and every product that are manufactured in India is of very poor quality. |
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Rate this: +1 -33
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Ravi said:
(Sat, Sep 4, 2010 02:36:44 AM)
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| Because we don't adopt easily with new things & changes. Just like others. Here there is less attention given to inventions in manufacturing. |
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Rate this: +2 -6
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Vinesh said:
(Thu, Sep 2, 2010 09:36:26 AM)
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| The main reason for this is less interest to invest in R & D activities. |
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Rate this: +6 -2
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Ojha Nitesh said:
(Tue, Aug 31, 2010 02:12:40 AM)
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There are so many reasons:
1. Corruption.
2. Political issues.
3. Right job for right candidate.
4. Study system.
5. Planning of optimising the resources.
6. Ethics which not be followed. |
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Rate this: +7 -3
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Saurabh said:
(Sat, Aug 7, 2010 06:17:01 AM)
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| In my opinion, India doesn't have Metallurgy as that of Germany. |
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Rate this: +6 -14
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